Today, ETF2L announced how they plan on keeping the scene active the coming months: Summer league. The preliminary starting date will be Monday June 14th. Signups open 20cet, Sunday May 30th (closing June 13th).
Here are some of the highlights of the announcement:
The ETF2L AFS Season 2010 will be sorted into divisions of 8 teams, with each team playing 7 matches. The number of teams in each divisional level will be as follows:
- Division 1 – 8 teams
- Division 2 – 16 teams
- Division 3 – 32 teams
- Division 4 – 48 teams
- Division 5 – 80 teams
- Division 6 – 96 teams
- Total – 280 teams
Map pool: (preliminary)
- cp_badlands
- cp_granary
- cp_freight_final1 (new freight)
- cp_gullywash
- cp_obscure_rc5 (or final – whichever is newest at league start)
- cp_gravelpit (best out of 3)
- cp_coldfront_rc3 (lol)
The points for a map result have been changed to the following:
- Map Win – 3 points
- Map Loss – 0 points
- Golden Cap Win – 2 points
- Golden Cap Loss – 1 point
All unlocks are allowed with these exceptions (subject to possible changes):
- Scout – Bonk allowed, FaN and Sandman banned
- Soldier – Equalizer allowed, TDH and Buff Banner banned
Read the full announcement
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133 comments
TweetI really like the idea (ice-hockey)
- # - nice! +1about the new point system
- # - nice! +1The new rules to avoid draws surprised me in a positive way ; Coldfront in the mappool on the other hand makes no sense.
If the MNM cups prooved anything, it’s that viaduct was the most poplular map that was tested if I remember correctly.
Either viaduct or just stick to 6 maps imo.
All in all very good news though, bring it on!
- # - nice! +1viaduct and gunboats plsss
- # - nice! +1would rather have season 8 but oh well
I like the no draw rules, but thats about it
and coldfront ? ..
- # - nice! +6Viaduct+Yukon over Freight and Coldfront ;)
also, gunboats and TDH allowed!
Nice work by ETF2L taking the initiative to get this going asap.
- # - nice! +1Good unlock rules and scoring system, but coldfront and shitscure in the map pool :-/
4 5cp maps would be enough, maybe throw in a good ctf map from the competition (if there are any, haven’t checked them out yet).
- # - nice! +0Shitscure has gotten a vast majority of followers, just take a look at the polls made on this site. Coldfront, on the other hand…It has to be a joke. I called it first! (actually, JB did).
- # - nice! +2Coldfront is bullshit, prefered the old freight, LOVE the new unlocks rules.
- # - nice! +0Dunno why Coldfront has been added when Viaduct was far more popular including amongst some higher Div teams. Added to that it would be a great test for Viaduct to see how it works as a league map.
- # - nice! +0Yeah, Coldfront was fun for a fuck around in MNM but too big imo, not as well balanced or even as FUN as Viaduct.
- # - nice! +0I wasn’t a fan of Obscure when it first came out if I’m honest. I found it too cramped in key areas – the same reason that as a medic I despise playing Well.
RC5 looks vastly improved though. It hasn’t really changed the cramped areas but the rest of the map is just getting better and better, I actually enjoyed the last PCWs we played on it.
It definitely deserves a place in S8 and/or this summer effort.
Coldfront though? That’s an odd choice! Personally I would’ve thought this summer league would be the ideal time to playtest Viaduct or Yukon rather than a map nobody seems to have wanted?
What smofo said!
- # - nice! +0+1 to Dunc, he worded what i was trying to say much much better.
- # - nice! +1I don’t get the Buff Banner being banned :S
- # - nice! +0Good stuff. :D I’d like too see what happens when good soldiers use the gunboats.
- # - nice! +0Buff banner is OP
- # - nice! +1+1 to dunc.
yukon or/and viaduct will be interestong for test during this AFS Season.
- # - nice! +0I find it weird how so many voted Coldfront is gonna be great, yet none of the comments (so far) support it. Is the poll wrong?
- # - nice! +0I don’t quite get the sandman and FaN bans. Yeah they are a pain but the negative aspects of using them are fairly apparent (unlike the equaliser which has no noticeable downside).
Of course a succinct 4 word counter argument from JB may just put me in my place ;)
- # - nice! +0As noted in the text, none of the maps are final :)
Coldfront had less opposition from the teams who played it than Viaduct which turned out to be like marmite. I still plan on making a few tweaks anyway, so watch this space!
Glad you like the new points system! :D
- # - nice! +1PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH UNLOCK RULES, THEY ARE FINE NOW!
- # - nice! +0@torden
Yeah I know a lot of people seem to like obscure, but a lot of people liked fastlane too. Makes sense I guess, since obscure’s layout is pretty much the same, three flat squares and a silly indoors final cp.
- # - nice! +0NA does it right –
drop freight and turbine
coldfront, gullywash, yukon, viaduct
- # - nice! +1Looking forward to this, going to be intresting to see how gunboats will affect the game. Good way to keep the scene alive over the summer.
- # - nice! +0Yes, it will be interesting to see how a banned weapon can affect the game.
- # - nice! +0I never really understood what is so good about freight except for mid maybe.
Cp 2 is as cramped as they come, there’s no room for decent fights, you get to spam around corners and that will decide the outcome.
And last is literally an uphill battle, you can’t flank and the trains don’t help either.
One really good way to win this map is to backcap 2nd because you have next to no time to react before it’s all over.
- # - nice! +1According to the poll on this very site 61% of div 3-6 players wanted the DH allowed, so ETF2L has effectively gone against the wishes of the majority of its player base :<
Seriously bummed out by this change in policy as I've mained DH solly since it came out.. haven't even touched the regular rocket launcher since December (barring the odd 5 minutes here and there of steam not connecting properly and allowing no unlocks). I know no one is likely to care (who are you? etc) but I'm seriously gonna have to consider whether I continue playing TF2 as a result of this change, and for what? Maybe the DH is seriously detrimental to the gameplay at Divs 1/2 level (I'll have to take people's word for it.. it's your high tier play anyway so what the fuck would I know) but what was wrong with a gentlemen's agreement banning it in the higher divs so that the rest of us proles could get on with enjoying the game?
- # - nice! +1TDH wasn’t OP just sometimes annoying don’t see the point in banning
If Mineral wants to give up winning for a few nice kills let him :<
- # - nice! +0It’s a shame TDH is banned, maybe the idiots who used it will have to learn how to aim and be useful to their team now.
- # - nice! +0Havent played coldfront before better have a look around it :S
I liked the abilty to draw with teams it gave the underdogs a chance to effect a season.
3 rounds of gravlepit with two well matched teams could take a long time in the lower division :S
- # - nice! +0TDH, whilst not necessarily being OP, makes the game slower and thus more boring, and above all it is just annoying to play against so a ban makes sense.
- # - nice! +0nice move, but coldfront and the new fright are bullshit!!!
- # - nice! +0@Thalien.. because it’s so much harder to aim with the rocket launcher where you don’t have to actually hit the target? Interesting point of view you have there.
- # - nice! +0Spaceboy the problem isnt with how accurate you need to be with the tbh, the problem is that it 1 shot kills people. Nothing should 1 shot kill a player unless its a headshot from a sniper. Granted you need to be more accurate with the tdh that the regular rocket launcher however alot of the deathmatch that a soldier deals with is generally mid to short distance, which is where the 1 shot kill comes into play. You simply can’t miss at that range unless you happen to be stevie wonder. I would have liked to have seen an increase in splash damage with the tdh but with lower damage and maybe a 5rocket clip. That would have allowed the soldier to still deal area based damage (splash) but rewarded the player for increased accuracy. Unfortunately we are left with a weapon that is overpowered in close combat, and is useless against groups of players.
With regards to the etf2l rule changes, the no draw rule will reward high skill clans and give them more opportunity to dominate the divisions. Widening the already big gulf divide between top and bottom division teams. The lower teams won’t be able to scrape a draw by turtling.
Not sure why the buff banner is banned unless its due to the bug of charging it without having it equipped(dunno if that still works).
- # - nice! +0TopGear; I can totally appreciate how people find it irritating to be one shotted and if I had a choice and could do a redesign on the weapon I would (personally make max damage 120ish, decrease damage fall off and up the splash a tad).. but given that I’m not in a position to do that we can only really assess what we’ve got, and personally I just think it balances out overall. I mean generally speaking the only class that is affected by the one-shotting is scouts and averaged out over short range encounters with sollies I still think they can fair better against DH sollies than RL sollies (at least at my skill level). I mean sure they’ll get one-shotted say 2 out of 5 times and killed versus a DH solly but against an RL solly they may get bounced and easily 2 shotted in 4 out of 5 encounters at the same range. Obviously they stay alive slightly longer before dying against the RL and that could prove crucial.. or might not, but either way I don’t think the difference is enough to bring the weapon into the bannable category. Now maybe at the level you play at a DH solly would hit 5 out of 5 one shot opportunities even against scouts with incredible movement and this wouldn’t work out.. but like I say at the level I play at it seems fine.
In regards to the fact that it’s a great short range weapon and sucks against groups.. I’d argue that there’s lots of weapons in the game that have areas where they’re incredibly strong and incredibly weak (sniper across the map as opposed to sniper at close range for instance and the inverse for pyro). So for me this seems pretty much in keeping with the game as a whole.
- # - nice! +0Does TDH still have mini crits?
- # - nice! +0TDH sucks.
- # - nice! +0/thread
/spaceboy@tf2
tf2wiki.net/wiki/Direct_Hit
Love to see that it’s banned, don’t see why people want these crappy weapons so badly.
- # - nice! +0@Evil
TDH still minicrits on people who are propelled in the air by explosive damage.
- # - nice! +0@minimoose
For me it’s the principle behind it. The weapon is shit, inferior to the original in most ways with one of the few upsides being a very infuriating, bullshit mechanic. The number of Soldiers who use it is very small, and the number of Soldiers that can use it ánd be credit to team can be counted on a 3-fingered hand and they would STILL be better off with the regular launcher. So why ban it? Why ban a weapon that is markedly inferior to its counterpart in almost every way and is used by a very small number of people?
- # - nice! +0tdh is too gooooooood
- # - nice! +0tdh promotes defensive play -> boring.
- # - nice! +0vanilla!
- # - nice! +0You missed the point spaceboy, read my previous post.
- # - nice! +0here in NA everyone seemed to like coldfront
my concern about gullywash and obscure is that they seem to just rehash badlands, more so obscure
- # - nice! +0lol yet another trolling from the Sturmis, and I agree with what dunc said was too boxed in key areas. I think the only key area left that may be cramped is cp1…(in rc5) _final is out very soon.
As for cp2 you can now flank and go behind a team even if they have an uber like you can on badlands which is why it’s loved so much. It works out soo much better and its much faster gameplay i thought out of all people Darn would appreciate the new bit on cp2 because now a soldier can make a huge difference :p
Good job to D2M and the admin team doing an ace job. I’d like to see gunboats definitely in though i know i know its not final yet matt :P
Cheers
Byte
- # - nice! +0here in EU we don’t care about NA.
- # - nice! +0ive got nothing big against obscure, mid could have something added on it.
- # - nice! +0Warmaster; I have read you post and the argument that the DH slows down matches is one I’ve heard previously (and is I believe the primary argument for its banning in higher level play) but my experience at lower levels does not correlate with this at all.
I find if anything the DH makes games more exciting and fast flowing as to get the best out of it I play even more excessively aggressive than I would do otherwise. If I was using the RL then sitting back and group spamming at range with my team would be more of an option.. but it isn’t with the DH as it’s like leaving my team a man down, instead I close the gap as quickly as possible with rocket jumping and get right up in the face of the enemy. This leads to a big swing in favour of either my team or the opposition as I do either great damage or suicide for nothing.. either of which moves the game on and makes it more dynamic and fast paced.
I don’t know at what level you play at, but given that I’ve only ever played Div 5/6 I’m gonna assume it’s higher than me so I’m perfectly willing to believe your experiences differ and teams would counter with a DH of their own and try to sit back and counter me jumping at them.. but that has literally never happened to me at this level (not effectively anyway). This disparity between levels is why I felt the previous state of affairs was perfectly fine with higher tier teams banning it amongst themselves if they wanted.
As for it just being irritating and that being enough to ban it? Seems like a weak argument to me, pretty much anything in the game is irritating if it kills you.
- # - nice! +0Good job admins
Haters gonna hate anyway.
- # - nice! +0I played against Spaceboy McGhee on the new Freight. Aww yeaah. And guess what, it was perfectly fine TF2. The Direct Hit wasn’t annoying, the new Freight was different – but playable (well, that blocked off door was… annoying).
- # - nice! +1i like unicorn
- # - nice! +6The TDH at lower levels has never really been the problem. The issue is what happens once it gets in the hands of a hocz or Darn. You know that 75% of those airshots will be hit, meaning soldiers won’t go aggressive on TDH players and TDH players won’t go aggressive at all because RJing with a TDH is pointless because of the little splash damage.
- # - nice! +3So that’s why it needs a global ban? No problem at the lower levels, a problem at the higher levels where nobody uses it as a gentleman’s agreement. I still see no reason to ban it.
- # - nice! +2*I still see no reason for a global ban
wtb edit function.
- # - nice! +0Would like to see gunboats allowed along with the community weapons. Other than that, points change is gooood, maps are decent except for coldfront, would like to have seen viaduct. Can’t see them making 6 maps when it’s 8 team leagues => 7 games.
- # - nice! +2TDH works well as an anti hw weapon from range as he is slow moving and easier to hit. Vanilla or All imo
- # - nice! +0We’ve tried the “diff rules for D1 to rest of community” Bill, it’s just a bad idea.
IMO the game will never progress if we don’t adopt a single ruleset. I don’t think there’s any real opposition to these bans at the top level, and if the top level teams are those forging TF2′s future as an “eSport”, then the ruleset across the league should be the one they’re using.
Personally, if I was like Director of the World or something, I’d have ETF2L as the competitive league with the “necessary” ruleset to fit that environment, then employ Wireplay or ESL (lol sorry anakin!!11) as fun leagues, with varying unlock rules dependant upon community vote.
ETF2L can’t please everyone, but it’s the only online league which is given any respect by the D1 players, and as such it should – again IMO – be the mainstay for competitive play.
- # - nice! +7It’s gonna be legen – wait for it – DARY!
- # - nice! +0@Dunc
I have no problem with that at all, Dunc. My gripe is with the following:
Almost every single response concerning allowing/disallowing certain unlocks and usage of maps is along the lines of Crzfst(sgsdgdhrtj)’s posts about maps/unlocks -> “It sucks just ban it”. No reasoning, no explanation, no nothing. I’m sure I’m far from the only one who would accept these rules without saying anything if they were properly explained.
- # - nice! +2Allow all unlocks!
Free Unlocks!
Every Weapon has his downsides so everyone has to make his own decision to use it or not. It’s really getting odd that many unlocks are not allowed because some whiney kids cry on the Forum that the TDH kills Scouts with one shot, Gunboats is a pain for Medics or Sandman is just annoying, maybe it is. But banning them is annoying too, so hear my crying and start to allow unlocks. Otherwise this game will just get more booring every Season.
- # - nice! +0And that’s where you are wrong electro. Allowing some of the unlocks would make the game a lot more boring
- # - nice! +0True Bill, but you could say that it’s been explained time and time again :)
Maybe it hasn’t, maybe I’m just aware of the discussions that have gone on in less accessible areas, but I guess it can be summarised by saying “no unlocks that slow gameplay, no unlocks that are OP and which of those weapons fall into those categories is decided by the D1 teams”.
Sounds harsh/arrogant/whatever but I guess it’s essentially true.. and, yet again IMO, the way forward for the game.
I haven’t been around the competitive scene that long, only a year or so ago that I started lurking etf2l before joining, but I don’t remember even seeing something be banned with an explanation or people asking for something to be banned/not used (in case of a map) with an explanation. A recent example of that being Viaduct. How many people who said they didn’t want to see it actually gave any reasoning for it? As far as I know, only the people from rockit actually reasoned their decision:
They find it too DM-based. Whether that’s true or not, I don’t know but it sure beats the vast majority of anti-Viaduct posts of “it’s not like a 5CP map, don’t want it” or shit like that. Again no reasoning, no argumentation, no nothing.
I’m not opposed to the Div1 teams deciding the rules and what to ban/what not to ban/play/not to play, but they do have to explain it and not just go “it’s shit, ban it”.
- # - nice! +0There is only a handful of unlocks for which I can’t see a reason not to ban them and which actually improve competitive play. ETF2L, being the main league here on which other leagues base their rules on, has adopted the wrong attitude right from the start regarding unlocks: it should have been ‘unlocks banned unless they improve competitive play’ , not the other way around. That is what caused the mess regarding unlocks from the start.
For me the biggest problem is that these unlocks change how the game is played, and with Valve continuing to release these unlocks that means the game changes like every month which is absolutely terrible for a competitive game.
If people want tf2 be a real ‘esport’ we need a standardized rule set + a fixed map pool (of around 6 maps). It’s a shame that we basically only have one online league that people follow and this league does not help establishing tf2 as a true esport. Instead they try to cater most of their userbase (lower division players) who just want to have fun and mess around with crazy unlocks and random maps. Don’t get me wrong that is not a bad goal but the problem is it is basically the only league people follow and so it IS bad for tf2 as a competitive game.
.. seriously? Coldfront and freight_final?
What a joke…I’d rather have Yukon and viaduct.
- # - nice! +2skinnie has hit the nail on the head indeedly
I cba to try and explain this shit, don’t really care either because wall-o-text won’t change the mind of admins. So i will just keep trolling and you just keep being bad.
- # - nice! +0And ye, skinnie has said everything.
- # - nice! +0I see skinnie’s point, but building on that I wanna say that one banned weapon in particular DOES improve competitive play imo- the gunboats
they really encourage playing the roaming soldier the way, imo, it ought to be played
- # - nice! +0I partially agree with you Skinnie. Surely, ETF2L should be in the position of setting a standard framework. And part of that is being prudent about new weapons and maps.
But, one could argue that whenever technology is a major part of the sport, it will also be driven by the evolution of this technology. Lets compare with the leading motor sports, such as Rally or Formula 1. They have a set framework for their cars and for the tracks. But within this framework there’s still room for cars being modified and new tracks to be added every season.
I believe TF2 will flourish the best under such conditions. We’ve recently gotten Obscure and Gullywash as part of an expanded list of maps that are both fun to practice and play.
On the unlock part, one could argue that there are more good things than just the old medic unlocks.
Bonk, spy clocks, sniper smg replacements and even pickaxe all examples of additions to the game which expands our game quite non intrusively.
Motor sports have evolved and improved through 100 years, I refuse to believe TF2 has reached its peak after 3.
The real juice then, is deciding on what improves, what makes it worse and at which rate we allow the new additions to shape our game.
- # - nice! +2Maybe I’m way off base here but I sense some resentment from the pros that the “bad” masses are somehow dragging your “e-sport” down by being catered to too much. I’ve got to say I think it may be self defeating to disregard the will of the majority of “bad” players if building the sport is truly what you want to accomplish. I mean the strength of any sport is in the number of spectators that turn out to watch games, this leads to sponsors, which leads to prizes… someone tell me who, other than the mass ranks of “bad” competitive TF2 players is gonna be watching these pro games? I really doubt it’s gonna be the css or cod communities tuning in to watch a cartoon game and it sure as hell isn’t gonna be someone outside of competitive gaming as a whole. So yeah, might be an idea to keep some respect for the grass roots of the game because if their numbers dwindle any aspirations you might have for the game at the top level go with them.
- # - nice! +3the buff banner being allowed in the rules or not of any league has absolutely nothing to do with tf2′s stature as an esports title
- # - nice! +0The TDH should be allowed imo. It is not really game changing at all, alot of the top US teams have tried it and not one soldier uses the TDH as a main weapon in invite play. Mackey occasionally changes to the TDH to dick around in scrims, but any serious match we play those TDH won’t be touched. The damage isn’t consistent and even soldiers with “amazing” aim can’t use the TDH effectively as the regular RL. If anything needs a second look, the new natascha is ridiculous op, talk about slowing down a game and just plain ruining fun. Also, coldfront is shit, go w/ Viaduct.
In response to Skinnie’s comment, I’d like to point out that the Buff Banner has the potential to be as much of a game changer as a Kritzkrieg, and yet it is banned.
- # - nice! +1Seems like a lot of top players would rather just ban anything than bother testing items. Someone in these comments did say that they wanted the crit a cola banned due to scouts being able to snipe medics with their pistols – despite the fact that crit a cola replaces the pistol. And another guy did say that it should be banned as scouts would be able to one shot medics, despite it only giving scattergun ~130-40 damage max.
- # - nice! +3The reason BB is banned is because unlike Uber and Kritz there is no accurate way of predicting when an opponent has a charged BB.
It’s too random.
Not to mention the fact with an organised team it is OP.
- # - nice! +1what enoryt said.
- # - nice! +0they already went through coldfront and unlocks, so why do we have to do that again?
to make sure
- # - nice! +0Comparing BB with Kritz is simply retarded. For those who fail to grasp the obvious: kritz is a high-risk weapon for a gain ranging from nothing to destroying galaxies, while BB’s biggest con is not being able to wear gunboats, with a reward usually bigger and more certain than kritz. Also, as Steven said, there’s no way to predict when it’s ready, often there’s no warning of it being used, hurray for sudden instakill rocket from around the corner. And if BB was allowed and teams learned to use it to it’s full potential, who would use kritz? No one.
- # - nice! +0I have no idea why the Buff Banner is banned, and stevens point above makes no sense at all. I good incdicator that a soldier has rage filled is if he just killed your whole team, or if he didnt die recently. Skinnies post is spot on, although personally I quite like the introduction of new weapons into the game, just because they are allowed does not mean people will use them anyway, but its nice to have the choice.
- # - nice! +0“often there’s no warning of it being used”
What about the huge banner that sticks out of the back pack, the glowing yellow guns, and the glowing yellow circles that appear at player’s feet?
- # - nice! +0I think bb should stay banned, it changes gameplay to much. A team can uber a bb soldier and on top of that everyone around gets minicrits, which potentially has a higher damage output than kritz, stupid imo. I don’t even think getting the rage is that difficult, you can get it pretty easily if you have the opposing team on 2 and you have 3. They can’t justify pushing cuz of respawns and the fact their defending therefore a soldier can just take a med on him and deal/take shit ton of damage to get it up and than push w/ that.
- # - nice! +2I cba to read right now but one thing I will say…
@spaceboy
You’ll never see the top players calling players in divisions below them bad. It’s usually only the D2/D3 players calling each other/lower div players bad.
We all know how much the community means – from D14 to D1. Every player is vitally important. D1 players aren’t in any way *more* important individually, it’s just that as a group they are generally the ones that forge the way for TF2 in terms of displaying the best games, the highest consistent amount of skill and also in terms of picking which game modes/unlocks/maps are best to do so.
- # - nice! +1oh and @honeymustard
again, those comments weren’t made by top players were they?
we’re generally reasonably well informed *and* all of the unlocks have been pretty heavily tested, although the gunboats I’ll admit to being tested less so, but we’ve seen the effect against the yanks/watching the yanks.
- # - nice! +1got to black skinnie up on this
- # - nice! +0Not div1, but still. There are a lot of ignorant users around.
- # - nice! +2So what are your thoughts on gunboats dunc?
- # - nice! +0There are indeed honey, I was just trying to make the point about the D1 players being able to provide a reasonably objective and accurate point of view when it comes to these matters.
My thoughts on the gunboats, purely from what I’ve seen in some NA demos and in the FB vs eMazing game, are that they don’t really provide anything positive to the game. When you play with an unlock that forces the opponents to use it too, that unlock – IMO – shouldn’t be allowed.
Gunboats basically allows soldiers to jump aggressively on the medic with more HP and often faster too as more creative double jumps can be used to get on the medic more quickly. It’s already hard enough for the med and demo to avoid aggressive soldiers in certain situations. Even when it’s 3v1 or 4v1 the sol can occasionally come away with a kill, in my experience he’s the class that’s most likely to do so in an outnumbered situation. With MORE health and quicker jumps the chance of getting a kill is raised significantly.
IMO TF2 is at its most fun when you really see the team elements of the game working. The timed pushes, the flanking, the aggressive with and without uber pushes, etc. For me the game becomes less fun when “pick classes” are involved, and with the gunboats, that’s effectively what the roaming soldier becomes.
That may be a biased POV from a player that can only play medic, but I’m sure quite a few non-medic players would agree with me. Also, good luck trying to find D1 medics when hocz jumps on your head with 275HP every 30 seconds :)
- # - nice! +0allow* gfd
- # - nice! +0ohh and I 100% agree with Natascha now being completely fucking retarded
Not naming any names (‘sup skinrox), two natascha defence is utterly fucking retarded and essentially game-breaking.
- # - nice! +1Gunboats imo don’t have that much impact in a game. Sure your roamer may be fast to mid but at what expense, you take the hp pack therefore your demo doesn’t have adequate hp to fight as well as he ought too. It may be effective for a round or two, but once the other team knows, its rendered useless, if its countered your a body down with ur demo at lower hp EARLY in a midfight. On top of that no shotgun to finish killls, so if your soldier is jumping or double jumping, he’s got about 2 rockets to make them count. The play is not a guaranteed success and adds a bit more dynamic to the mid play.
“IMO TF2 is at its most fun when you really see the team elements of the game working. The timed pushes, the flanking, the aggressive with and without uber pushes, etc. For me the game becomes less fun when “pick classes” are involved, and with the gunboats, that’s effectively what the roaming soldier becomes.”
I think thats what makes the game more exciting, these pick classes, you can do high risk, high reward plays to instantly turn the tides, like killing the med as sniper/spy pick, gay stickies, all that promotes a more exciting spectator friendly match. And pick classes fall under team elements, spy/sniper/bombing soldier plays don’t just happen, most of the time these plays are called and it displays really good coordination between team and individuals. Pick classes wouldn’t be as effective without the teamwork element.
- # - nice! +3no.
- # - nice! +2+1 skinnie, dunc and all the other baddies
- # - nice! +0Invite/div1 teams are so set in stone in how plays “ought” to play out that they lose the drive to be creative in strats. Top tier players need to relax, you’re the best for a reason. You don’t have to worry about new idiots coming in with super weapons to off your team. Banning different weapons because their new or w/e is the worst way to go and and we can learn a few things from lower teams. I truly believe creativity stems from lower teams. Our team has learned so many little tips and tricks lower teams do in order to succeed. Ex. going spy to see if they switched uber/kritz by disguisin as enemy med and than switching to a class to counter accordingly, creatin tele’s when last point is impossible to break all that good stuff. Quirky things that is out of the ordinary in invite/div1 levels of play. Sorry I went totally off topic, just felt like writing even though i write like shit.
- # - nice! +6‘fraid we’ll just have to agree to disagree then :) You’re entitled to your opinion of course, and it doesn’t mean yours is wrong and mine is right, just that I prefer the game the way it’s played at the moment.
To me, if pick classes were the way the game should move forward, maps like Badwater and Goldrush would be preferable to the beloved Granlands style maps.
- # - nice! +0true enough. haha glad this didn’t turn into a shitstorm.
- # - nice! +0If you like gun boats that makes it easier for the most boring tactic to face in tf2 (solly jump jump holding mouse one aiming on medic which he lands on) plz go ahead and allow it… if not, plz ban it.
also whatever arguments you have for allowing tdh, one hitting stuff just makes everything minor. Plus if you can actually aim it is op. It gives us nothing and adds lameness!
- # - nice! +0no 100. Boom!
- # - nice! +0btw dunc youre a very smart, nice, creative person with a lot of ideas and thoughts about tf2, the development of this wonderful game + you have enough willpower to actually do something awesome with… whatever it is you have.
it makes me happy to see that you recently write like a normal person that everyone can take seriously, no offence but a few weeks ago i always had to look above all your bs to find your real thoughts and ideas.
:D keep it up
- # - nice! +4All unlocks should be allowed. It might change the meta, but the game should reward those who can adapt. Vanilla may be fine for you, but others don’t find building uber and spamming for 5 mins in stalemate games fun.
The game isn’t like SC where the meta changes every few months despite no changes being made to the game. TF2 needs external stimuli to stay dynamic and evolve. Playing the same game for 2 years gets stale and boring, and is the reason many get burned out and quit.
Develop new strategies if a weapon is good in a specific situation. e.g. Some believe TDH promotes defensive play as RJ’s are more risky. Then push in a way that takes advantage of the lower accuracy of the TDH by ubering in scouts instead. Find ways to flank instead of bombing in with RJs.
It’s no excuse to ban a weapon because it’s “annoying”. I find stickies annoying, does that mean they should be banned? No, they’re fine because they’re now an established part of the game, however annoying they maybe. Perhaps if the unlocks were all released at the start, they would be played now. It’s only because the old guard are comfortable with how things are now and lazy to adapt, that they are scared of unlocks.
- # - nice! +4People have played games for 10 years (CS?) with barely any updates coming out, at all. TF2 is like what, 3?, gets updated constantly and changes a bit after every one. At this point imo you just have to make TF2 as enjoyable as possible, not give as many possibilities for your creativity as you can. For example, TDH, no, its not OP, but it is hell of annoying to play against, its not fun to die cause a guy from the other side of the map clicked mouse1 randomly and thats pretty much how you get kills with tdh, you click mouse1 in the direction of the enemy choke.
- # - nice! +7“The game isn’t like SC where the meta changes every few months despite no changes being made to the game. TF2 needs external stimuli to stay dynamic and evolve. Playing the same game for 2 years gets stale and boring, and is the reason many get burned out and quit.”
Wrong. Just look at how teams played bl/gran/gp two years ago, compared to how they’re played now.
- # - nice! +1ETF2L has gone from leading to barely following. Why are Kop and D2M still admins?
- # - nice! +4i dont know eriksgaard but man i sure wish vanillatf2 had the balls to allow gossip posts about d2m’s unsavory behavior to be put up.
- # - nice! +0Eriksgaard change the fucking record. Originally it was “shut up dunc”, now it’s “D2M is badmin”. If you think you can do better, why don’t you step forward away from your alias and provide ETF2L with some ideas.
Sneis, thanks, it’s an easy one though. During the day = bored at work. During the evening = not bored, sensible posts.
:D
- # - nice! +4“People have played games for 10 years (CS?) with barely any updates coming out, at all.”
CS? The game known for having the most notoriously obnoxious players in the world? I wouldn’t compare the games.
- # - nice! +0’tisn’t the players we’re specifically comparing this time though, we’re comparing the playability of the games at the highest level.
- # - nice! +1Hehe, let me clarify there chief. Why are CS players so mad? A. Its either a different player base, or; B. a gameplay that makes them behave differently (in a negative manner). Neither of the cases are useful for TF2.
- # - nice! +0meeh cs are full of kids, has nothing to do with the actual game even its shite.
- # - nice! +1I feel a wave of off topic now. Lets leave the CS debate for something else.
- # - nice! +1nawr it’s still relevant to Sturmis’ comment, which in turn is relevant to the whole thread :)
- # - nice! +0oh it was blind’s comment, not Sturmis’, my bad :D
- # - nice! +0Blind, isn’t ‘clicking mouse1 in the direction of the enemy choke’ a pretty standard thing in games at any level. Sure I understand how annoying it is to get 1 shot from a mile away but shooting at choke is hardly a new concept.
- # - nice! +1Have to say, i pretty agree with skinnie’s comment and dunc’s ones.
@ torden : I can’t really see the comparison with the mechanics sports, just remember a few years ago, FIA imposed a limt to all F1′s constructors to balance the engines’ power. It’s pretty much what we’re (I am ?) looking for.
Of course, the technology will still be improved (it’s its main goal) but as for swimming, they decided to bann the last swimmings suits cause “it’s ruining the game”. (heard it already somewhere)
As many, i feel the game extremely well balanced since they fixed the variable damages. Every fighting class has a chance to win in a 1vs1 situation.
But for the improvement of gameplay, i really liked to see some changes with the weapons cause they don’t change the way the game is played (© skinnie).
As examples : kritzkrieg, bonk and blast for pyros are maybe my favorites, even if the bonk is under-used in my opinion :)
So my point is : a weapon which considerably change the already existing balance in a 1vs1 situation shoud be bann.
- # - nice! +2…which gunboats solly does not
maybe this is my american bias talking, but I think any sort of stimulus to make soldiers, especially roaming soldiers, more aggressive is a good thing
I mean if a scout can flank and reliably two-shot a medic it’s equally as devastating as a gunboats soldier, maybe even moreso because he has less of a chance of being caught beforehand
this might (again) be my american bias, but I think euro teams don’t wanna run gunboats soldier because they aren’t used to fighting roamers with more than 200 hp
- # - nice! +0A wee addendum that I forgot to add from yesterday which applies to your post, mustard:
When the roaming soldier adopts the Gunboats, he becomes a becomes a pick class, as I said before. Difference is, it becomes a pick class that can’t be easily killed. Spies and snipers have major weaknesses, the gunboat soldier doesn’t. The only weakness is that he doesn’t have the shotgun.
Scouts can 2 shot medics, sure, but only if they’re allowed to get close enough. At top level, that only happens when a team is in disarray or when an opponent pushes with a clever, considered timed push, i.e. the sols push from the front and the medic either tries to escape and runs into scouts or whilst holding uber the scouts hit him from the side/back.
That isn’t what I’m talking about though. I’m talking about the 3 or 4v1 situations such as Badlands CP3. Medic survives, has a scout and sol or demo alive. In that situation, if the opponent has a scout alive, 19 times out of 20 he’ll barely touch the medic. On the other hand a soldier has more of a chance and with the Gunboats the chance is significantly higher. Same applies in so many more situations, I don’t think I need to list them all.
That, to me, isn’t conducive to enjoyable, flowing play. It makes for “stalematey” (speechmarks to denote a word I’ve just decided to make up), low-scoring games that are neither good to play in nor watch.
- # - nice! +3anyone for cake ?
- # - nice! +1no? ok more for me then
- # - nice! +1If it is chocolate cake ok!
- # - nice! +0“When the roaming soldier adopts the Gunboats, he becomes a becomes a pick class, as I said before. Difference is, it becomes a pick class that can’t be easily killed. Spies and snipers have major weaknesses, the gunboat soldier doesn’t. The only weakness is that he doesn’t have the shotgun.”
You’re wrong.
- # - nice! +0come on, Jaeger. Gotta back that statement up with something, honey
- # - nice! +1Well I actually play with them in serious matches for starters. You can watch my games or watch my streams. How about
www.ustream.tv/recorded/707925...
I run gunboats most of this match and I play predominantly a support role not a pick role.
Good soldiers rocket jumping on the medic is mostly a function of the medic being poorly positioned or if the minimax situation makes sense for the soldier.
Bad soldiers have no reason for their rocket jump dive bombs just like bad teams have no reason for their uber pushes.
In general gunboats allow you to be more aggressive throughout the round which speeds 5cp maps up quite a bit.
- # - nice! +5Whats that “Medic hurt” notice thingy you see in that demo?
- # - nice! +0Jaeger do you have any demos you using them? Got frag’s tf2 section seems to be months out of date.
- # - nice! +0I’m kinda confused here.
People want to ban the Gunboats because it makes bombing like an idiot too easy, and then they also want to ban the Direct Hit because it’s too good at countering aerial play like the sort of idiots who bomb every life?
Really can’t seen an argument for banning the Direct Hit now that you can’t Stairshot Medics.
- # - nice! +0Although it might not be the case for Jaeger, for the majority of teams gunboating soldiers is pretty much a medic pick weapon. Medic has needed a buff since the beginning of time and shit like that.
And gunboating will encourage dumb play among lower teams, as would the equalizer
This game has only degenerated since the introduction of all these weapons…now we have crap like force of nature, natasha, and backburner
leave these weapons to the pubs, for competitive play keep it vanilla
- # - nice! +0www.esportsea.com/teams/23105
click the annoying: continue to website
and then click each match and the download demo option is there
some do not work because of the countless updates
- # - nice! +0Some stv and pov demos here:
- # - nice! +0www.complexitygaming.com/index...
Thanks guys. :D
- # - nice! +0